Reminds me of politics…if one politician suggests funding a program at a slower rate of growth than antoher it is labeled as a ‘draconian cut’, even though in truth nothing is being taken away, it is only increasing more slowly. Same goes here, VS is growing, maybe more slowly than some want but is is growing and nothing has been taken away. Yet, just like in politics, some wring their hands and decry the ‘cut backs’…makes me smile.
That is a good comparison!
If I remember correctly, the “Express” SKUs were a pretty big surprise back at their release, and were originally supposed to be temporary anyway. NETMF was never and will never be a big thing for Microsoft, so to expect them to design product SKUs around it is unreasonable.
Most developers that would be interested in NETMF/Gadgeteer would be experienced C# developers anyway, which almost certainly means they have access to a Pro or better SKU of Visual Studio already.
To say “bait and switch” is disingenuous. There was no bait, there was no switch. Microsoft never promised to make VS free forever.
@ godefroi
This doesn’t help out if your a 14 year old.
Agree about most…but how many threads have we handled here in the past year about people wanting to learn C# that have never used it before. Do you think they would give NETMF a try if it meant going and buying a $500 copy of VS2010 Pro in addition to a micro? No, they’ll just stick with Arduino.
With VS2010 you can develop for NETMF for free (the bait). With VS2011 you will have to buy the Pro version (the switch). To talk about NETMF & Visual Studio like they are totally different products is pointless. Without Visual Studio, everything that makes NETMF appealing goes away. No one except pro C# & VB devs will bother with NETMF now if the writing on the wall is that they will eventually have to purchase VS Pro to support their hobby.
There is a program called DreamSpark that makes all of the software in an MSDN subscription available to students. There is some overhead - a school must verify that someone is a student in order to qualify for the program - but the goal is to give as many students as possible access to pro development tools. http://www.dreamspark.com/
@ ianlee74 - Hi Ian. I absolutely agree that the VS integration is the ‘bait’. That makes these small devices different. What I still dont understnad is the ‘switch’ part. If we were saying that you have to use Dev11 and pay for it, then that woudl be a switch. We are not. We are saying that exactly the tools you found compelling last week are still available. I know that there is some uncertainty but the current solution is supported until 2020 so there is no need to change for anyone who is currently using it.
Dev11 is a great release and I am sure there are features that everyone woudl like to use but is the 14 year old mentioned above really going to miss the ability to use a cloud based source control system?
@ colinmil - I understand. But, at a time when OSS & OSHW are really starting to take off and Microsoft has been starting to support these efforts I don’t think this move does anything positive for NETMF. Honestly, my guess is that they probably didn’t involve you in this decision. Hopefully, you’ll be able to talk some sense into someone before the next release. I’d sure hate to have to tell a group in 2019 that they’ll need to go install VS2010 Express so they can play with their FEZ Triceratops 100Ghz micro 
@ ianlee74 - Agreed - I dont want to see that either. 
@ colinmil
Ok I am not that bad for a 14 year. Most of us are probaly playing video games. But I run a website and developpe a few programes. Now doing tutorials for netmf will be impossible because no one would want to buy VS for 500$ than buy the actual hardware.
Five years ago, I might have agreed with you that this was mostly the realm of pros. Now I disagree, quite strongly.
Seen this? Arduino the Cat, Breadboard the Mouse and Cutter the Elephant on Vimeo
Or, if you’re able, check out a MakerFaire and, in particular, notice the soldering classes packed full of little kids. Like 4-5 year olds.
I was fortunate enough to meet Colin at MF:NYC 2010, where I saw .NET Gadgeteer for the first time. I would have loved to mess with the kits that’d be setup there but couldn’t get through the crowd of kids. (that and there were people watching, so I couldn’t just pick a few up and move them out of my way)
[quote=“godefroi”]To say “bait and switch” is disingenuous. There was no bait, there was no switch. Microsoft never promised to make VS free forever.
[/quote]
I don’t think it’s disingenuous, though it may not be totally accurate…
I guess my biggest objection to the news from Redmond is that they’re not rebranding the express versions that aren’t moving forward. MSDEV totally spanks the Arduino IDE in 97 ways but it’s already got a name that’s 2 years out of date on it… If you’re not going to move it forward as a free offer, pull the date off it - it does nothing but say “I’m old” to people new to the field. Rename it “Embedded Developer Edition” or some such…
@ ddurant - Thanks for the video. I hadn’t seen that one. It’s inspiring. A few years back I taught a C# class to middle school boys out of my home. It started out as just a group of my son and a couple of his friends then quickly grew to my max capacity of eight just by word of mouth from the boys who started it. I can only imagine the class size if I’d marketed it and had more room. The kids loved it and this was without having any NETMF hardware. The piece that made the whole thing possible though was the Express editions of Visual Studio. Because of this, I was able to equip all the computers I could round up and instruct the boys to install it on their home computers. Some of them will probably grow up and eventually become purchasers of the bigger versions. Creating the Express editions was one of the wisest decisions Microsoft has ever made. They should be expanding the program not shrinking it.
I just had a bit of a flash back… My first computer was a VIC20 & later the Commodore 64 that both had a built-in free BASIC compiler. If it weren’t for that free compiler there is no doubt that I would not be a software developer now. I probably would have never even considered it.
@ noob123 - Hi Noob123 - it sounds like you are doing great - congratulations.
I dont want to sound like I dont hear you - I understand that there is more uncertainty than there was. But I als want to make sure that we are all working on the right information. C# Express is still there and still free. There is no reason that you can’t make tutorials that are available to people who only want to spend money on hardware. Also, I assume that you are still in school. That means that as Kerry said earlier - if you want or need to run Dev11, you can get the professional version for free through the DreamSpark program. We want to make sure that you can keep up the good work.
@ colinmil
I planned on doing tutorials for beginners in netmf at my local lobary but it would kinda of make no one want to do it if they have to spend all the time regirstering. I am still in elementary school. And my future high school is not on the list, what do I do?
They’re not shrinking it, not by any measurable amount. NETMF might as well not exist to the Microsoft higher-ups. It absolutely does not enter into business decisions. What NETMF does with the Express SKU is not on any radars anywhere.
Wasn’t that a bait & switch as well, by your logic? You had to purchase the computer (the switch) while the compiler (the bait) was free. Furthermore, when the Commodore 128 came out, you had to buy that AGAIN, because you certainly couldn’t continue working with your current tool, that works fine, and didn’t suddenly stop working or work less well just because there was something new and shiny available.
I get it, it would be great if the Express SKU continued to be suitable. Hopefully Colin & co can work something out over at MSHQ, because the last couple years of VS2011 have been absolutely wonderful for the community. What is important to remember, however, is that it was a gift from Microsoft to us (or at least, those of us who do NOT have VS licenses), and they never promised to continue giving us those sorts of gifts indefinitely. They have not taken anything away, they have merely chosen not to give us another gift (yet). If they choose not to, then other options can be explored. The VS shell will continue to be available, I assume.
Question for the experts.
VS is a great product with very rich extensibility features. I wonder if it will be possible to add 3RD party support for NETMF development to DEV11 Express.
I’m not an expert, but as I understand it, one of the big things that Express doesn’t have is the extensibility. That’s why I mentioned the VS shell, which is designed to have applications built on top of it.
I was wondering if this is changed in DEV11. VS Shell is great indeed.
The problem is… that VS 11 can only be used for develop Metro-style application!!! So for .net MF apps must use the good old VS 2010 express edition 
I don’t think MS will limit it that way. You still should be able to develop non-Metro apps.