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FPV with .. tinyclr?


#1

herye herye.

please take note of the contents of the following arduino forum: http://www.arduino.c…um=1289331318/0

you will notice that I have been taking some heat there, but have also gleaned some information that I considered really useful. it is also the reason I am writing this at all.

so, with that said, and assuming you have looked at the other forum, is this the appropriate place for asking questions on this subject?

very briefly, I am interested in any products that are out there that are open-source, and that do something similar to what this product does: http://www.readymade…products_id=275 . If such a product does not exist, I am interested in knowing who, if anybody, would be interested in developing one, or helping me develop one.

yo,

-mike :slight_smile:


#2

Looks like those links are broken. Are you talking about FPV flying? You don’t really mention in your post…


#3

please update your links so we know what you are talking about.


#4

Ok, I see what happened. He cross posted this to the Netduino forums and just copied the post here,

No, the FEZ still isn’t powerful enough for video processing. You’ll need an OSD chip. See my reply on the Netduino forums.


#5

See this http://www.fezzer.com/project/170/max7456-high-peformance-driver/

And also look into using paralax propeller as a co-processor, See this http://www.microframeworkprojects.com/index.php?title=FEZ_Gameo

Note that you can do video on larger product, like our ChipworkX


#6

thank’s dudes… OSD chip, ein? and Gus, thank’s for the links.

one more question… relating to the root cause of some frustration with the arduino folks: do you have any idea how many open source micro-programing communities there are out there? I, in my naivity had assumed there was only one, arduino. I therefore assumed that they must be interested in branching out into micro-controlers capable of doing all sorts of things, including, for example, FPV. I was very wrong. My suspicion now is that there is probably one community for each … my vocabulary fails me… ‘type’ ‘application’ of micro-controler, which would mean by corollary, that there must be hundreds… groan?

groan in this context means that there is therefore that much more stuf out there to learn… well, put it this way: one needs to learn the ‘basics’ somewhere. Arduino would seem to be one convenient place to do that. one then wonders, if one has then mastered all that can be mastered with arduino (I presume that this is a significant amount), if they then want to do something that arduino can’t do, and have to use some other technology, are they back to square one? It’s like languages. we have what, at least 10 major modern languages? We have a similar number of computer languages. I had hoped, somewhere in the depths of my heart, that I could learn to do everything I wanted to do with micro-processors, with only one language. with your average modern language requiring over, say, 2 years to master, I don’t have time or energy, at this point, to master anything other than the 1 language I really need.

anyway, thought that should be clarified. sorry to make you read through all that…

-mike :slight_smile:

-mike…


#7

Basic Stamp was the best thing ever back on the days where my 40Mhz PC was very fast!!! People used ASSEMBLY back then and if you programmed in C you were an idiot! Arduino came after to give use a lot more power and you are programming in C not assembly. People have made all kind of amazing things with Arduino clocking at 16Mhz and 2KB or RAM…now managed languages started merging into PCs and everyone says they are slow and bad. Most modern businesses use managed languages now…what happened to “it is bad do not use it”

…those days have passed. You can now get a 32-bit about 100Mhz processor for under $5! This little chip is faster than my first PC. Now, you want to use FEZ or not is up to you but in year 2011, please I beg you, do not use 8-bit micros. Can we make 8-bit illegal to use? lol

Now with the complexity that come with modern processors, it make sense to use modern software, like NETMF. Threading, file system, best IDE in the industry…you got to love it.


#8

huh. you are saying that arduino, despite all that seems good about it, is destined to become obsolete, perhaps in the near-future, because it is ‘merely’ 8 bit! …hold on… I think it is actually 16 bit… whatever.

I guess I have to say this, for the reccord, and I think many people will agree with me: one of the greatest things about arduino is the cleanliness of it’s website. while attempting not to disparage any other such website. … I just deleted a whole paragraph I wrote that was clearly redundant, frustratingly circular and meaningless.

you obviously feel that fez is the thing to use. throws up hands :smiley: I might research it more, but will probably just pinpoint the thing that seems most appropriate for me to use, and learn that. assuming that that thing is ‘easy’ to find, I think that was about the wisest thing I have said this week. :slight_smile:

all right, have a good night :smiley:


#9

Arduino is a great idea and great website with great software that runs on any OS. And no I didn’t say FEZ is the answer. I was only saying that 32bit processors are as cheap as 8bit so why not use 32bit? Please do your homework learning about devices and you decide what fits your needs. I was only giving a personal openion


#10

Hi Wheelnut Mike

As a netmf convert and someone who has seen the last 6 months of changes in the GHI story, I thought I’d give you my thoughts - they’re just my thoughts, and i haven’t seen the Arduino thread (I’m too lazy to search for it since your link is busted), so they’re not targetted at you or the feedback you’ve had elsewhere.

Arduino is based on the Atmel 8-bit AVR device, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmel_AVR, and typically made with devices from the ATMEGA family.

An Arduino is purely a board with a “standard” layout of headers and an Atmel chip with a pre-defined bootloader on it. You can write assembler or C code for these chips (and lots of people did before Arduino came along - and many still do!) and they’re great if you have a microcontroller background or want to write small code to do interesting things. The Arduino layer brings a level of abstraction to the platform that you no longer need to know, which means they’re great for people who didn’t want to or weren’t prepared to delve into the “hardware” area, and it’s programmed in a higher level code (I understand it is like C++, but not quite the same) with it’s own IDE.

.Net Micro Framework boards are all programmed with a common set of tools, and offer some minimum features. The framework itself was a Microsoft “product” that is now in the open source arena. All programming is done inside Visual Studio 2010 - the free edition is fine (as an aside: any chosen hardware platform that does not run the 4.1 framework may not use VS2010 but use older versions - the framework SDK is linked to the VS version). The really cool thing with this IDE is that you can do live debugging over the USB cable you deployed your code with. And step through code, all kinds of great things. I remember the best I could do in my AVR days was lots of characters pushed out the serial line so I could figure out where in a program I was up to.

Then there’s hardware. There are a lot of netmf devices out there, and the good folk at GHI have several of them. The Fez line is “enthusiast” grade, ranging from direct Arduino compatible (to allow Arduino shields to be used on them) through to the Cobra, and then the other GHI more “commercially oriented” devices like the ChipWorx boards - basically something for everyone. Several of their hardware platforms have open source hardware schematics, and the GHI specific IP is built into the USBizi chip itself (which is their closed source IP, but I gather there are things afoot in that camp too ). Netduino is the NKOTB with some great looking hardware and again their own netmf implementation. Each vendor is choosing what features to focus on and support, and the winner is the netmf community.

The real change from AVR to Arduino to netmf board is the tools you have available to deliver a product quicker, whether that be a commercial product you’re going to sell thousands of, or if it’s just something you tinker with in a hobby capacity. The live debug and stepping is an awesome change in the toolset I have seen. There are also lots of folk out there with C# experience that would instantly feel at home on a netmf board.

So I think what Gus might have been saying is he’s an old fart :stuck_out_tongue: not really, just that technology has changed so dramatically in the past, and that there’s lots of different price and performance points for microcontrollers - we have 200mhz 32-bit ChipWorx devices or 72mhz Fezzes or (48mhz?) netduinos, and then there are 16mhz 8-bit AVRs. So a Panda, at $35US is not much more than an Arduino, and has pin compatibility with their shields, and a heap of extra IO ports if you could ever want them, PLUS it runs netmf at 72mhz. Does that mean an Arduino is “limited”? not really, but there’s a world of other benefits for those few extra dollars too.

whatever it is you decide on, enjoy it.


#11

here is the link to his post on arduino.cc
http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1289331318

Full motion video isn’t going to happen with fez alone. You telling a camera mount to pan and tilt with it sure. You controlling thee flying device sure. Processing the video itself no.

Which is why most solutions that do exist have a camera and wireless transmitter with a base station that receives the signal and displays it.


#12

no worries at all man! :slight_smile: I think the main reason I included ‘throws up hands’, is that I am aware that at least 80 % of programers will have their own favorite board/language/chip/environment, whatever, and if you ask 10 such people what the best thing to use would be, you are likely to get 10 different answers. Usually all of them right :slight_smile: the pit trap to avoid is turning in circles, never getting anywhere. but that isn’t -your- problem! :smiley: you seem quite happy with what you have going, so kudos to you! :slight_smile:


#13

[quote]Full motion video isn’t going to happen with fez alone. You telling a camera mount to pan and tilt with it sure. You controlling thee flying device sure. Processing the video itself no.

Which is why most solutions that do exist have a camera and wireless transmitter with a base station that receives the signal and displays it.[/quote]

ok, second thing first :wink:

you seem to be implying that the system is a follows: camera -> transmitter -> reciever -> something to treat the signal, like a micro-controler of some type, or a full-blown computer, I suppose, -> a display.

in that list, there is not ‘computer’, micro-controler between the camera and transmitter. is that true? I say this also because the FPV systems I have been looking at don’t seem to mention it either. they only talk about the camera and transmitter…

as for the first thing, from what I can tell, you seem to be implying that this netmf with visual studio is the (first?) micro-controler to provide this fancy de-bug option? I think this is where you go through the program step-by-step and you have a special ‘window’ that shows you all your variable values as they change?

third:

are you saying that from your perspective this is one way of describing the evolution of these technologies? that netmf could be considered the successor of arduino, and dito of avr?

fascinating stuf… :slight_smile:


#14

[quote]here is the link to his post on arduino.cc
http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1289331318[/quote]

groan… hehe… I was outside just now, reflecting on the fact that you folks had been complaining that I had still not posted a working link, and thinking whether I should. I half decided that I might rather prefer not to :slight_smile:

my crimes, as I see them, are 3-fold: 1) not taking sufficient time to research existing information, 2) posting too many ‘irelevant’ links, and 3) assuming that the arduino community would be interested in develloping FPV capability. In other words, wasting peoples time. I am going to stop talking now, in order to avoid repeating any of those here :slight_smile:


#15

it turns out that arduino is indeed 8 bit. …I was going to ask what seemed like a really dumb question about the benefits of higher bit counts, something that can only really be appreciated when one runs into the limitations of lower-bit processors. …and I don’t even know whether the fact that arduino can’t handle FPV is a bit issue… I know it is a bandwidth issue, in part. anyway, I found this: http://electronicdesign.com/article/digital/yes-you-can-easily-shift-from-8-bit-to-32-bit-mcus.aspx which you have all probably read already, or contains nothing new for you. anyway, it notes that the transition from one processor to another can take 3 months for teams of engineers… note my coments about languages above. so I am not alone :slight_smile: so it would seem that there is strong encouragement to start in the right place, learning how to program 32 bit, assuming that the next highest hasn’t yet come out… :slight_smile:


#16

What is your background? Knowing what you are familiar with would help the community tell you things that you would easily understand


#17

@ mikethe1wheelnut – I’m working on exactly what you’re talking about. http://www.tinyclr.com/forum/7/1573/ My Panda-based dev board has OSD, GPS, battery monitoring. I’m working on a Panda-based groundstation right now (actually soldering up RSSI pins on my video RX a few minutes ago, as a matter of fact!)

I’m using the MAX7456 chip… it’s good enough for now. I have looked into Propeller as Gus suggested as well but I’d rather focus on flight controls next.

Here’s my photo build log: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=236025&id=729838931&l=1b070e7b99

and my first OSD flight (last Sunday): http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=452264028931&ref=mf

I’m happy to share my code. Right now it isn’t pretty though because I’m testing components one at a time and learning a lot in the process. I’m due for major refactoring.

Upside-down-Chris has some PID code that would be a good base for autopilot.


#18

Wauw Andrejk,

That is looking very cool, Sadly i cant watch your flight because the need of a facebook login, that i do not have and also not like to setup.

I love to see more.


#19

Update: I had this on the SD card in my phone so…
Posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkmaujvI7VA

You shouldn’t need a FB account to look at the photo album. If it still asks you for one please let me know.


#20

yo! andrejk! you’re awesome!

fyi, if I have been silent, and am silent, it is in part because I have been staring at screens so much in the recent past that my eyes are seriously starting to hurt. given that, you also start to wonder whether I should be interested in fpv at all…

it is also in part because I want to give myself the time to soak in everything that I can from all these threads before asking questions. I obviously can’t start doing this until my eyes start hurting less…

I do have one question,however, that you folks might be able to answer, now that I know that you are actively interested in model airplanes… servos. if I connect 4 AA battteries across a servo, and the ‘signal input’ of the servo to the signal output of whatever microcontroler I am using, but don’t connect the grounds of the servo and the micro-controler together, will I burn out the servo? that seems to be what has happened, and I can’t figure out why it would be.

thank’s, and chat again soon!

-mike :slight_smile: